Faith and Reason in the Baha'i Faith with Peggy and David Schlesinger

Announcer: 00:01

From PHX.fm, this is Conversation with the Rabbi, featuring open, honest dialogue, and sometimes unconventional perspectives on the world we all share.

Adrian McIntyre: 00:13

Welcome to another Conversation with the Rabbi. I'm Adrian McIntyre with PHX.fm. Our featured guests today are Peggy and David Schlesinger. They're members of the Baha'i Faith. They're prominent in the Chandler area. We're going to have a very interesting conversation that will touch on their faith, their practice, the role of science and logic in everyday life, and I'm really looking forward to this. Our host for this conversation, of course, is Rabbi Michael Beyo, CEO of the East Valley Jewish Community Center. Good morning, Rabbi.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 00:45

Good morning, Adrian, and good morning, Peg and David. Thank you very, very much for joining us for a Conversation with the Rabbi. Very excited to host you and to hear all that you have to tell us about both the Baha'i Faith, your work, and as Adrian said, the intersection between science and religion.

Adrian McIntyre: 01:07

It's something that I think probably most listeners will not have been exposed to before. The Baha'i Faith is an independent world religion. It began in Iran in 1844 and has spread to well over 200 countries and territories, and yet, is not very well known. Peggy, David, why don't you start off this conversation by giving us the Baha'i for newbies point of view? How do you introduce yourself to folks? Talk a little bit about who you are, about the tradition that you participate in, and all of that.

Peggy Schlesinger: 01:41

One of the things with that is that we believe in ... As Baha'is, we believe in the oneness of God, that there's only one God, and that God has been sending different messengers over time to instruct us, to direct us, and help us. And we believe that the most recent one was Baha’u’llah, which means the glory of God when translated to English. We believe that there is only one humanity, that we are all brothers and sisters, and that we need to act that way. We believe that we must ... In order to get to the point where we will be happy together, we have to eliminate our prejudices. We absolutely must. That's racial, gender, religious, economic. All of those. We have to remove those from our world. In doing so, we actually will bring about world peace. World peace is possible, but we have to do the work, we have to change.

David Schlesinger: 02:52

I'm going to add to that, that we believe that humanity is a spiritual entity, that we have souls, and that they are created by God, and that our purpose is to purify these souls and develop them spiritually. And to fail to do that is to waste your own personal resource. How we act in the world actually then would be a reflection of our spiritual development and acquiring virtues, honesty, for one, or respect for another, or compassion. These are spiritual virtues, but their reality in the real world would be quite extensive in terms of how people build products, create cities, design things, even social systems. If it was a member of your family, you'd treat that member of the family different than a complete stranger. The message we believe, and all the religions from the past and probably far into the future, will be there are no strangers.

Adrian McIntyre: 03:56

That's a wonderful thing. Certainly, as an anthropologist, the human science tradition that I participate in has argued very strongly for an understanding that's not widely shared, that humans are probably the most homogeneous species of mammals on the planet, and that from a purely genetic point of view. Not that's the only way one should look at one's self. But from that point of view, there is less genetic variation between you and any other human on earth, no matter how different they look, than there might be between two chimpanzees that look identical. The two identical-looking chimpanzees might be more genetically diverse than you and someone who looks very different from you. And yet, we don't think that way, and we don't talk that way, and we've put ourselves into these categories and divided ourselves, and look where that's gotten us.

David Schlesinger: 04:56

Well, actually, you've answered the question. The science of it is exactly what you said. The superstition is that we're different and that these people don't count as much and they're somehow not numbers of my family. To me, religion is saying, "Love one another." The creation story of ... Actually, most religions in the world have to do with people all coming out of the earth, being created from the earth, either being created by hand out of dust or sung into existence in some religions, but they're all made of the same substance. That's a spiritual teaching at the heart of many, many religions, and it's exactly what you just said.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 05:41

May I ask a question? I hope that it's not an irreverent question. It's just trying to understand. It seems to me also, based upon prior conversation that we had, that the Baha'i Faith is very much in sync with reason. And given that as a basis, why do you think that most religions are not in sync with reason? The overwhelming majority of religious expressions seem to me to be completely antithesis to reason, and that is why I think that those people that are brought up in those faith traditions and leave often leave because they have seen a contrast between what they have been taught in their faith and then reason. But explain, why do you think so?

Peggy Schlesinger: 06:50

I think that's the case because of the fact people think that they ... They want to take what they have, let's say their religious teachings, and they want to make it more concrete. And in doing so, they come up with views that, in my mind, seem to be quite bizarre. I have to tell you, the first time somebody told me that the earth was 6,000 years old, I almost laughed, because I thought it was a joke, and then I realized that they were serious. And if you think about it-

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 07:26

You've never been to an Orthodox day school, a Jewish Orthodox day school. That's what they taught me. What, it's not true?

Peggy Schlesinger: 07:35

That is not true. Science does not agree with that.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 07:40

Science does not agree with it. I see.

Peggy Schlesinger: 07:41

When science proves something that somebody has said was the case to be wrong, then the people need to change because of the fact ... You say science is just discovering what's actually really out there and such. But a lot of times, that comes from the concept of people trying to make things concrete. The world has to be flat, because the fact when the Messiah comes, everybody's going to be able to see him all at the same time. Well, I'm sorry.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 08:09

I've never heard of that. That's the reason that the world is flat?

Peggy Schlesinger: 08:13

Yes. Yes. That's the reason why the world ... See, then, they finally figured ...

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 08:18

Now I know. Now I can go back home and explain to my kids why the world is flat.

David Schlesinger: 08:23

Well, Copernicus got into a lot of trouble trying to change that opinion.

Peggy Schlesinger: 08:27

As did Galileo.

Adrian McIntyre: 08:29

It was a fatal point of view.

Peggy Schlesinger: 08:30

Yes, yes, exactly. But people have interpreted their holy books as being very ... A lot of times, they want to make it literal. Well, you think, "God doesn't need to write a history book. He does not need to be literal." You need to look at what is the spiritual reason for that, and why is that the case? And I think a lot of times, people forget to look at the why.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 08:57

Peggy, are you sure that you belong to the Baha'i Faith, and you're not a hidden Jewish Maimonidean?

Adrian McIntyre: 09:07

Here's a question. You said God doesn't need to write a history book, and that prompted me to ask, what are the attributes of God in your faith? I was raised Seventh-Day Adventist Christian, in which it's very common, as it is in many Protestant and in many other traditions, to anthropomorphize God and to talk about God with human descriptions. And of course, there are strands of mysticism in Christianity and Judaism and Islam and others that refuse to use human attributes to describe the divine. But I'm curious, were you saying that casually in the sense of a metaphor? Does God have qualities like a person?

Peggy Schlesinger: 09:50

God is unknowable essence. He's beyond our comprehension. That's what we believe. I can't describe God, because I don't know how to describe him.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 10:06

The first time I met Peggy ... I'm sorry to interrupt you. Just in context. I so much connected to everything that Peggy was saying, because I could've said the same words coming from a Jewish Maimonidean approach. Also, Maimonides says exactly the same. Maimonides says, "God is not knowable. The only thing we know about God is what God is not." I can describe God in what Maimonides called the negative theology, to say, "God is not X, God is not Y, but I cannot describe positively what God is." The words that Peggy was saying, and she will continue to explain from the Baha'i tradition, they resonated so much with me, because they're so ... As I said earlier, jokingly, maybe she's a Jewish Maimonidean. It's fascinating to see how two traditions that are very, very far, but on these specific points, they're so close.

Peggy Schlesinger: 11:16

And I will tell you, it's because of the fact I think it all came from the same source.

David Schlesinger: 11:22

Years ago, when I was young, I had a theological discussion with an also young man who was studying for the Jesuit priesthood. It was about an hour-long discussion. I think coffee was involved. We were both discussing ways in which our religions dealt with God and people and virtues and civilization, and we discovered that there was a tremendous parallelism. I found that, and I hope he found that kind of interesting that ... We weren't discussing theology or taking up collections, but how the human condition can be improved. I felt that it amplifies what Peggy said, which is, at the core, almost every revealed religion that we know of, of course, there's always crazy exceptions, but has the same kind of concept. The anthropomorphization, wow, I actually said that, of God is, I think, a problem philosophically and religiously and culturally and even ethically. For example, in a high prayer, it might say that God is the most merciful of the merciful, and that's about as close as you can get. Peggy has an analogy that she used that she thinks works, having to do with a carpenter and a table. Okay. It doesn't spring into her mind. The analogy is that a perfect carpenter, a fabulous carpenter, master carpenter, builds this beautiful table. Its lines and proportions are excellent, it's finished beautifully, it's a work of art. And the table, to a certain extent, exemplifies the mastery and capability and wisdom of the carpenter. But the table cannot understand the carpenter. And we believe, at least in our simple minds, that that relationship exists somewhat between us and God. We're the table. We were created by God. We don't have the capacity to understand the reality of God. It's totally outside our capability.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 14:03

As much as I agree and understand with that, let me probe and go a little bit further in my questions. My assumption is, and please prove to me right or wrong, that those traditions from time immemorial until today that did or they do anthropomorphize God are more prone to look at other traditions and if they have the ability to try to change or impose their tradition on others. The moment that I anthropomorphize God, then I, as a subject of God, I become part together with God in some form or another. And then I see in me God as well, or I see in those who behave like me God, and God behaves in certain ways. So, God will go and strike down those who are against God. Okay, let me go and do that. Let me go and do the work of God. The anthropomorphic God that doesn't like the other, that doesn't approve of other forms of worship, and therefore, let me be hand of God that does that. While a tradition that completely is against any form of anthropomorphism of God, then I don't really know what God wants or doesn't want. I can only speculate what I think God wants and do the best that I can. But I think that they're less prone to say, "Categorically, God wants me to kill somebody else, because they are not worshiping like me." Is it just a figment of my imagination, or is there some truth to that?

Peggy Schlesinger: 16:15

I hadn't thought about that, but I think you're quite correct, because of the fact ... Matter of fact, actually, we had an example not that long ago. The person who said that they couldn't wear a mask because of the fact we're made in the form of God, and so therefore, you cannot cover the face. First of all, you're making assumption that God has a face and that you know that God has a face.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 16:37

And that it looks like you.

Peggy Schlesinger: 16:39

And it looks like you. Exactly, exactly.

David Schlesinger: 16:41

And he wasn't a very good-looking guy.

Peggy Schlesinger: 16:44

Yes, so poor God. But it's one of those things where ... I think you're correct. It makes the assumption ... When people say, "God told me to do this," and particularly, when it's a negative thing, you think, "I'm sorry. First of all, if you look at your holy writings, God does not tell you to do bad things. You should be kind and thoughtful and courteous and truthful and honest and trustworthy and respectful." All of those. Love. Love is a very big one. You say, "If those are the qualities that, at least those are the qualities I believe God wants me to develop," then when you get anything that's contrary to that, you say, "You made that up." But I think you're correct. It's like, "If I think God looks like me physically, and then therefore, I am part of God." Which, oh my heavens, I would not want to be in that position where somebody thought that, be that person. But it's one of those things. If you're in that situation, then you're ... I think maybe you're right. You feel justified because of the fact it follows along with ... It's kind of like using reason. I should say rationale, really, because of the fact you're rationalizing why what you're doing, which is wrong, is right.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 18:12

Okay.

Adrian McIntyre: 18:13

Justifying your actions with some claim to divine dictate.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 18:17

Yeah.

Peggy Schlesinger: 18:18

Right.

David Schlesinger: 18:19

There's a long list of things that God has told us to do. There's a few I recall in the Jewish tradition about thou shalt not kill and murder and steal and covet the neighbor's wife and take the name of your Lord in vain, et cetera. These are things that we're actually told to do. We're told in many religions to offer charity, to be kind, to be fair. Justice appears very often in divine literature. These are instructions. Long ago, when I was involved in a quality development system and manufacturing plants, forgive me, we learned that there's a thing called work instructions, and everything you read on the boards and everything in the web pages and everything your boss tells you is work instructions. And in most companies, they disagree and conflict. And if you eliminate the conflict and the disagreement, very often, the quality of the product goes up. Well, I'm sorry. Most of these religions don't disagree. Most of these religions actually give us very similar basic teachings about our relationships that have to do with virtues. And the other stuff, as Peggy said, 500 years later, it seems like a good idea, but I just really made it up.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 19:47

But then, if we all agreed that most religions, and I hope that we're not just being, that we're saying this because of the “kumbaya,” but if we do truly believe that most traditions, they teach to be nice and courteous and seek justice and everything, then please explain to me why, for the better part of human existence, people fought over religion. It's a contradiction. It is an internal contradiction. Either our religions truly teach us to be nice and kind to the stranger, et cetera, et cetera, but if that is so, we would not have had so many, so many tragedies that occurred either directly or indirectly because of religion.

Adrian McIntyre: 20:44

The first thing is, of course, to examine the premise of the question. Is it actually true that, since time immemorial, people have fought over religion? Of course, it's true that they have, and there are so many examples of religion driving conflict, but I think it would be a mistake to assume that's the only story and to ignore the also multitudinous, since we're going for the big words today, examples of coexistence and leaving people alone. I think as many examples of wars being fought over land, over resources, over craven human concerns, and maybe having a religious justification overlaid on the top, I think we ought to somehow disentangle those. You'll forgive me, the diversion here, but I think, for example, of the Sudan in Africa. It's a country I spent a lot of time in as a humanitarian relief worker. Sudan had ... Back when it was one country, it was the largest country in Africa. It had, for many, many, many years, had been involved in civil war. That war had a religious dimension to it, in the sense that the Islamic junta based in Khartoum was oppressing the animist and Christian-converted tribes in the south. It was described with the language of jihad and holy war by this Muslim military regime that was oppressing those people. And they stood up militias, and they did horrible things in villages, and they used religion as justification for it. Fast forward to when I was there, 2004 and 2005, the conflict was in Darfur. Everybody in Darfur was Muslim. The same Islamic military junta in Khartoum couldn't use that language to foment division, so instead, they used racial language, and the idea was that the Arabs are superior to the Africans. By the way, the irony of this was that those labels didn't match anyone's expectation of what they meant. You would be talking to somebody whose appearance would lead you to think they would be an African, darker skin, flatter nose, what have you, and they would tell you about their long lineage in an Arab tribe. It turned out it was a linguistic division, not a racial one, both of which are arbitrary. Anyhow, I think that what we need to understand is why it is that religion has predisposed itself to be a justification, a rationalization, as Peggy said. Why is it that some religions have allowed themselves to be used as a reason to destroy other people?

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 23:33

So, I agree with you that religion, per se, is probably never the only cause for wars or discrimination, et cetera. But as we have all agreed, religion has been kidnapped and has been used for these wars and to justify whatever the darkest mind wanted to justify. And then I go back to ... My assumption is that maybe we see this more in those traditions, or maybe not, that maybe anthropomorphized God. It's just something that I will have to research more and try to understand. I always say that some people, they need God to be the bastard son of Zeus and Santa Claus. No, I'm serious. But in a certain way, for a lot of people, that what God is, and it gives them comfort, and I respect that. I really, truly respect that, for many, many people, God does love them. And when I say, "No, God doesn't love you," they get emotionally distressed. So, I'm asking you, Peggy and David, when you have those conversations with friends, colleagues, maybe family members, that their thought process is so different than yours, and they do talk about God in anthropomorphic ways ... Yes, I'm sure that you let it go and it's fine. People are allowed to believe whatever they want. But how do you interact, if you interact having those conversations?

Peggy Schlesinger: 25:37

My viewpoint is war tends to be caused by greed and power. The one thing, though, about pulling religion into it is the fact it is something that people feel that they can hold onto, and it's harder to put your finger on, since it's not materialistic. You say, "I can take this and use this," the person who wants the power, and that's been used in a lot of different ways. If you look at a lot of the justification from the early Catholic church, you say, "The whole idea behind that is that they wanted to rule the world." You use that in order to make these things happen. To me, whenever you look at any type of what's considered a religious war, it always gets down to greed and power. Those are what really the leaders of it want, and that they manipulate the masses in order to have them accept this. I think, though, part of the thing, too, is that people are relatively fragile as far as our view of ourselves. You say, "I want to feel as if I'm doing the right thing. I want to feel as if I'm loved." But sometimes, other forces, if you will, come into play as far as, "But I want to have all the money in the world." Okay. Those two things don't necessarily go well together. Then I get back into that justification of, how can I justify what I'm doing in order to have these things? But I think it always goes down to greed and power.

David Schlesinger: 27:30

A different take on the whole event, which is not to negate anything that's been said previously. I believe that's all true, believe it or not. But another way of looking at it from a different altitude is that we don't have a lot of recorded history. Anthropologically, we go back quarter million years, 300,000 years.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 27:56

You're not that old.

David Schlesinger: 27:58

Well, some mornings, I feel it. But 10,000 years ago, we got some Chinese writing inside of turtle shells. That's pretty much when our records start. Although, in New Mexico, they found some ancient artifacts of certain kinds of Indians that were 30, 40,000 years old, points of arrows or something. But the deal is that we believe, I believe anyway, that this is a fairly young planet, this is a fairly young solar system, as solar systems go, and that humanity is still thrashing around in its childhood, and that the religious teachings that we got were entirely suited to the time and the place and the people where they were delivered. I liken that to the divine physician. He or she or it knows exactly what your illness is and gives you a cure. 1,000 years later, another religion starts somewhere else, and it's slightly different. The spiritual principles are generally the same, but a lot of the physical principles and rules and laws and so forth are different, and I think that's because that made sense in that society at that time. Baha'is believe that there's a progressive, forced spiritual evolution of humanity by this succession of divine messengers, and that eventually, and I'm not holding my breath, but eventually, humanity will emerge into maturity and stop all this selfish fighting and greed and power mongering and lying to everyone to do it and trying to militarize religion to motivate my ends and so forth and so on. I think we're involved in a process, which is why I think you can look back and say, "Well, that's the way it was, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the way it will be in the future."

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 30:10

Maybe I belong to the Baha'i Faith without knowing it.

David Schlesinger: 30:15

No actually, you have to look for suspicious ... because 6,000 years was the number coming up by Bishop Ussher in 1666, and he was Catholic, so you may want to check your sources.

Peggy Schlesinger: 30:28

Actually, he was Presbyterian.

David Schlesinger: 30:29

Oh, he was Presbyterian. I'm sorry.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 30:31

But let me ask you two questions, because it's very interesting, what you said. And I agree with everything that you said, strangely enough. Number one, does your religion, does your tradition believe, allows for other civilizations to exist in other planets? Does your tradition speak about this at all? And second, let's go with this question first. You mentioned that how our solar system is a very young one, et cetera, et cetera, which is all true. My question then is, okay, do you believe that there are other civilizations, humanoid or not, that exist in other planets, and does your tradition address that?

Adrian McIntyre: 31:27

I just also don't want to let it slide by that we're defining four and a half billion years as very young.

David Schlesinger: 31:34

It turns out that some astronomer has calculated that, on the basis of the amount of gas loose in the universe between galaxies, et cetera, that there's enough free gas to actually produce 90% more stars than exist already, if stars keep forming. Obviously, it's a long time to us. I remember a line in the geology book where the guy was talking about the mountains coming up near Jackson, Wyoming, and he said, "Those mountains raced to the surface in only 35 million years."

Adrian McIntyre: 32:09

Stephen Jay Gould at Harvard used to try to get people to wrap their heads around geological time by saying if you stretched out your arm and the beginning of the solar system was the joint at your shoulder and today was the very tip of your fingernail, that merely brushing a nail file lightly across the surface of your fingernail would erase literally everything that is known about human history, because it's so little of that sequence.

David Schlesinger: 32:40

I agree.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 32:41

Yeah. Often, we don't realize the time and we don't realize the impact of time and our position in history and time and how, ultimately, as Abraham said, [Hebrew language], "I am just dust of the earth and nothing else." I think that that is very important for human beings to realize that, and to humble ourselves in front of history and galaxies and gods and all of that, and to realize that so much of the, as we were saying, of the wars come for greed of all kinds. Maybe if we were to humble ourselves and understand our true nothingness, then we would lead much nicer lives, strangely enough.

Adrian McIntyre: 33:37

We might leave each other alone a little bit more, too.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 33:40

And then we will be happier.

David Schlesinger: 33:43

To get back to your question, I don't want to ignore that question. The Baha'i Faith alludes to the fact that planets throughout the universe have creatures. Now, the word's interesting, because it implies all kinds of life. It doesn't necessarily imply people, regardless of what they look like. But there's this very big universe out there, billions and billions of galaxies, each with billions and billions of stars. And as someone pointed out, boy, if there's no one out there, that's a lot of wasted space. We don't preclude that, but whomever we meet will have the same spiritual reality, even though physically, they may be different.

Peggy Schlesinger: 34:35

One last thing, though, or one other thing. I want to respond to what you were talking about, Rabbi, as far as if we recognized that we're just dust. In the Baha'i writings, it talks about oh children of dust. That business of humility, part of the thing is, if I recognize that God is unknowable, then I recognize my position in this is just a tiny little speck, and my job is to just do as best as I can, but I recognize my humility, as opposed to the pridefulness. Showing pride before God, like I say, we don't want to be that person. If you're showing pride towards God, then you think you can define what God says and you know God's mind. I'm sorry. I can't limit God. That's not possible. Humility.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 35:28

I would like to switch and ask you and go to a different topic, the topic that has always bothered me whenever I think of the Baha'i Faith, and it is that, in Iran, where your faith, the cradle of your faith, you are persecuted. Your religion is persecuted in Iran. Can you talk to us a little bit, so maybe that also our audience will learn about the struggles of people of your faith that are facing persecution for religious reasons, even today in 2021?

Peggy Schlesinger: 36:06

Well, I will tell you, when the Baha'i Faith first started, 20,000 believers in Iran were murdered, and sometimes, in horrible, ghastly ways that to me are ... I don't know how somebody could actually think to torture a person like that. Today, you say, "Oh, well, that was in the past, right?" Well, the problem, of course, is the fact this persecution continues. They've continued with ... There have been ... There was a ... I can't remember if she was ... I think she was 16 years old. They hung her because of the fact she was teaching children. That was her crime. She was a Baha'i teaching children about the Baha'i faith.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 36:49

But if your faith is monotheistic -- not if ... your faith IS monotheistic. Then what is the theological or the ... Why, from an Islamic perspective, should you be persecuted if you're monotheistic? You're not pagans. Not that it would be okay to persecute somebody that is a pagan, but I'm just saying. You don't worship statues. You don't have those imageries that may offend deeply a Muslim community. So, why?

Peggy Schlesinger: 37:34

It's a theological difference, and part of it is that Baha’u’llah came and said that he is the next messenger of God. Well, certain Muslims believe that, since Muhammad was considered the seal of the prophet, he was the last prophet.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 37:55

I see.

Peggy Schlesinger: 37:55

You say, "Okay, God said he'd never leave as alone, but you're going to say that Muhammad was the last one, just like the Christians think that, really, Jesus was the last one until some mythical time?"

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 38:07

And Jews believe that Moses was the last one.

Peggy Schlesinger: 38:12

Exactly. Baha'is believe that Baha’u’llah was the most recent messenger of God. Now, we can explain that in the fact we believe that we've been in the time of prophecy, and Muhammad was the last prophet in the line of prophecy. He was the last warner. It turns out that's another name in Islam of what prophet means. And that Baha’u’llah was the beginning of a new era of fulfillment. We really will have world peace. We absolutely believe it. Don't hold your breath. We got a lot of work to do. But he started a new era. Some people believe that the Baha'i Faith is an invalid offshoot of Islam. Well, first of all, it's not an offshoot, so it is its own religion. I don't know if it has to do with the fact that it came from an area that was Islam from people who would be traditionally Islamic, that then there's this ... There's a feeling as if it's a greater conflict. In Iran today, people can't own property. They can't go to school. They're kicked out of school.

David Schlesinger: 39:37

If they work for the government, they lose their pensions.

Adrian McIntyre: 39:40

Yeah. I think it's important, a couple of things, first of all, to acknowledge persecution wherever we find it, because this goes to the root of what connects a lot of this conversation, which is around social justice and how do we treat people with respect even when we disagree, et cetera, et cetera. It's also important to note that there's been a lot of different things happening in Iran between 1844 and the present day. Whereas the Qajar dynasty had one reaction through the republic, which may have been ... The Baha'i may have had a ... I don't know. I'm just guessing. May have had a different position in Iran under the Shahs, through to the Islamic revolution in 1979, where a resurgence of a mullah-led Islamic outlook on life has created issues for a number of different kinds of people. There's that, and then there's the worldwide spread of this faith, right? The fact that, yes, persecution in Iran is the problem, but there may also have been persecution other places and flourishing other places. Can you speak a little bit? I do want to have us circle back to science and logic and reason and faith before the end of the conversation, but can you speak a little bit to that phenomenon? How does the Baha'i community experience itself in the various places now around the world where members are?

Peggy Schlesinger: 41:08

The Baha'i Faith does indeed have places where the Baha'is are being persecuted. There are places where it's illegal to be a Baha'i. In other countries, Malaysia comes to mind. In Greece, a long time, there was a tightrope that needed to be walked by Baha'is because the fact, if you're in Greece, you need to be Greek Orthodox in order to be Greek.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 41:42

Even though Greece is part of the EU?

Peggy Schlesinger: 41:45

It's lessened.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 41:47

Interesting.

Peggy Schlesinger: 41:48

But they still have to be Greek Orthodox. In Greece, that's the only place where Baha'is are also allowed to be Greek Orthodox.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 41:55

That's funny.

Peggy Schlesinger: 41:58

If you think about it, it's political that you have to be Greek Orthodox, not because of real religion, if you will. And that's again where you say, "You've mixed these two things together as if they're one and the same, but they are absolutely not." And yet, there's other places. India, the Baha'i Faith is growing quite quickly. The Baha'i Faith is actually spread out in more than 200 countries and territories. There's, Baha'i all over the world. Some places, there's more than others.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 42:36

We know that the shrine is in Haifa, and Haifa is considered a holy city, or just a shrine?

Peggy Schlesinger: 42:47

Well, it is considered a holy city. It's also, though, where the world center of the Baha'i Faith resides.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 42:52

Right. And is there are a lot of Israelis that become Baha'i?

Peggy Schlesinger: 42:57

No. Actually, the only people in Israel who are Baha'is are the people who are serving at the world center, volunteering at the world center.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 43:07

Interesting. Okay.

Peggy Schlesinger: 43:09

And if you become a Baha'i in Israel, then actually, you may be asked to leave Israel because of the fact we do not try and teach the Israelis.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 43:20

I understand. Okay.

Adrian McIntyre: 43:21

One of the themes in this conversation has been acknowledging that, in many traditions, there is tension between faith and reason. There has historically been ... You have to pick a side, because the sources of truth cannot coexist. Either you're turning to revealed religion and your faith in that tradition, or you are turning to put your faith in a methodology and a community that is materialistic, empiricist, and that says the only true knowledge is what we can discover through the process of creating and learning scientifically, right? You both have long histories of professional engagement in technology and science communities. You would be described by many folks, who probably didn't know about your participation in the Baha'i Faith, as a typical expert in science and technology. That's what you do. And yet, for you, these two things comfortably coexist. Can you speak to this issue of science versus faith?

Peggy Schlesinger: 44:41

In the Baha'i Faith, it's very specific that we believe in the harmony of science and religion, because we believe that science without religion results in greed and selfishness and materialism, whereas religion without science results in superstition. You have to have that they go hand in hand. Otherwise, you end up ... If you think of it as a teeter-totter or a fulcrum, you want to be in the middle because of the fact you recognize, if you have religion, it then takes you forward in science in the right ways with the right motivation. And if you take science without having any religion, then you're somewhat wandering because of the fact you don't have ... Why should I develop nuclear power as opposed to nuclear bomb?

David Schlesinger: 45:42

One of the things that Baha'is believe is that there is ... The same God invented and created the universe, and all the things in it obviously created both religion and science. I think the story of Genesis, which matches a bunch of other stories, emergent stories, it's very clear that there was nothing. And all of a sudden, there was something, and it was ordered, and it became our universe. To say that the religion is somehow exempt from the concept of order and rules that make sense is probably a wrong thing, but it's a different kind of thing, because all science deals with mostly things, gadgets, measurement, things I can measure and see, qualities of the atom, the development of solar power. All these are things. Religion deals with the soul, and the soul is not entirely of this dimension. The soul exists, I think, outside of time and space. I don't think it sits in your liver. And the concept there is, there are rules, and we're given those rules, too. Forgiveness, charity, kindness. And these have definite, measurable responses in the person who's providing them and in the people with whom that person is involved. We've got lots of rules and organization in religion. But when a religionist looks at something and says, "Well, this is what it means scientifically," well, they're stepping out of their area of expertise. And when a scientist says, "Well, you can't measure God, and therefore, you can't prove it," well, she's stepping outside her area of expertise. They're using the wrong kind of standard for a different kind of logic.

Peggy Schlesinger: 47:57

The other thing, too, I want to bring up is the concept of miracles. People feel like miracles have to be something that cannot be explained by science. And yet, I know that they did some research about the parting of the Red Sea. They believed that there was a volcanic explosion that caused a tsunami, that just happened right when it was needed. To me, God doesn't need to break his rules to make things that he might want to have happen, happen. Now, as to the whole details of that, really, I don't know, obviously. But you think that concept of providence is something that ... It's not that you can say, "Oh, God did that for me." You don't know that. It could be. But it's one of those things where ... I think that, when there are things that occur and people find scientific explanations for it, that does not discount that there might have been some divine intervention in it.

Adrian McIntyre: 49:08

I think it's fascinating to consider the differences between religious traditions that emerge in, let's say, 1844 versus the seventh century versus the first century versus the Iron Age and what is happening in the broader context of those times. None of those earlier revelations, if you will, had to take account of the fact that there was already an industry happening. There was already, by 1844, what we would properly call scientific knowledge happening.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 49:42

Yeah, but on the other hand, Adrian, there are very modern expressions of Christianity that were definitely born in a modern age, and their belief system is, I would say, is in contradiction with science and reason as we understand reason and as we understand rationality.

Adrian McIntyre: 50:09

And you know I completely agree with you on that. That's an excellent point.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 50:12

I know, I know, I know, I know. I just wanted to pick on you and say that the comment that you made may not be ... I'm not sure that we can use it as a metaphor, as a template for all new religions.

Adrian McIntyre: 50:25

That's a very good point.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 50:27

Cha-ching.

Adrian McIntyre: 50:27

And the way in which traditions respond to their environment, we could say some ... And we've talked about this with regard to some movements called fundamentalist, which are inherently modern, but their reaction to modernity is to put a medieval layer over it.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 50:44

Yeah.

Adrian McIntyre: 50:45

We're running out of time. We should give our guests the final word here. Share with us the importance, in your view, of the commitment to social justice and to treating people better than we have. This infuses your volunteer work, both within and outside of your faith. Let's have you say something to end our conversation today on that imperative that you mentioned in the beginning of this conversation, to eliminate prejudice and work together for a better world.

Peggy Schlesinger: 51:14

To work together is absolutely something that we strongly believe in. We have to recognize, though, where are we? We do have systemic racism, so we need to look at, okay, how can we bring about the social justice of eliminating that racism? Actually, I read the book Caste, so I'm going to suggest we need to remove the caste system that we have. We need to look at, how do we bring about the equality of women? All of these things, we recognize, have to happen. One of the things that we've been doing is trying to be involved in various organizations that promote that. Although, since we do not believe in being political or partisan, we only are involved with those that are not. Matter of fact, I'm going to put a plug in for ... We have a social justice interfaith devotional. It's going to be on ... It's the first Wednesday of the month every month at 7:00, where we talk about ... We look at inspirational quotes, and then we have a good discussion about, how can we bring about developing these particular virtues? The next one, we're going to have on sacrifice. We've done respect and courtesy and courage. All of those that are important.

Adrian McIntyre: 52:49

Our guests today are Peggy and David Schlesinger. They're members of the Baha'i Faith and leaders in the Chandler community and beyond. Thank you both so much for joining us for this Conversation with the Rabbi.

David Schlesinger: 52:59

Happy to be here.

Rabbi Michael Beyo: 53:00

Thank you very, very much. I really appreciate the conversation. I learn a lot every time we get together. Really, thank you very, very much.

Peggy Schlesinger: 53:09

Thank you for having us.

David Schlesinger: 53:11

Take care.

Adrian McIntyre: 53:12

If you enjoyed today's show, please subscribe to Conversation with the Rabbi on your favorite podcast app. You can also find the latest episodes online at ConversationWithTheRabbi.com. For all of us here at PHX.fm, I'm Adrian McIntyre. Thanks for listening, and please join us for the next Conversation with the Rabbi.